Curse

Scar006 · Apr 25, 2005, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Thank you all for your informations. I played WoW too and visited the forums frequently and there were a lot of whiners out there but most of em had a point.

I now will give the Necro primary defenitly a change combinet with a mesmer and just try it out a little.

But in general are the devs paying attention to the inbalance?
Because in WoW there were imbalances everywhere and the dev's just made the bad classes worse.

What is you expirience with the communications with the devs? are they paying attention to the Community?

(so there is a change that SR will be tuned up)

Tozen · Apr 26, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Scar, my goal has not been to convince you one way or another, only to offer an alternate viewpoint on "necromancer suckiness."

Unlike many choices in life, your selection of "primary profession" isn't going to make the slightest difference in the big scale of things, so pick something that you know you will enjoy above all! The secondary can always save you if push comes to shove.

I simply hope that I've helped to reassure people that wanted to play the necromancer already but were too afraid to!

tektonik · Apr 26, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Ensign put it best ill just quote it here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Please explain how this is a fair comparison, as the Necromancer will hit 0 energy much more quickly than an Elementalist.

I can explain it in much fairer terms. Energy Storage gives 3 max energy per rank. Soul Reaping gives 1 energy per death per rank. Thus, even with a perfectly naive understanding of combat dynamics, we can easily conclude that the Elementalist has a better primary attribute at all points during a battle before three things have died - with a little thought, it's clear that Energy Storage is better for the deaths = 3 case as well, as the Elementalist could have spent that energy at any point of his choosing, while the Necromancer doesn't get his energy until later. So it's fair to say, without too much analysis, that at least four deaths have to occur before Soul Reaping is comparable to Energy Storage.

Then we dig a little deeper. Which is the most important kill for determining the outcome of a battle? The first one. That's when one team starts cutting to the defensive to try and get back up to strength while the other team starts to push their extra man advantage. As far as getting or preventing that first kill goes, Energy Storage contributes its full +3 energy per rank, while Soul Reaping contributes nothing. The next most important kill is clearly the second, which will generally either even the score or decide the battle - either that or someone has ressed and we're back to the previous case. For the second kill, Energy Storage has still contributed it's full +3 to the battle so far, but Soul Reaping has now contributed +1 energy per rank. This continues, and the pattern becomes apparent - Energy Storage is an attribute that is much, much more useful when the extra energy is most critical, while Soul Reaping likely doesn't start pulling its weight until after the battle has been decided.

On top of that Soul Reaping suffers from what I call the 'too little, too late' principle. Let's say that you're a defensive Necromancer/Monk who's doing his utmost to keep a focused target up. It turns into a war of attrition, your energy is depleted and you're running on regen. The enemy synchs up some damage, and your target goes down while you watch helplessly at 3 energy. Then what happens? You're handed a bunch of energy that you wish you had a second earlier - energy that could have kept that target alive. Soul Reaping consistently hands you energy not when you need it, and not even at random - it gives you energy right after you need it.

The net result of all this is that I'd want six, seven deaths to have occured before I'd even think about picking Soul Reaping over Energy Storage, and once that many deaths have occured the difference no longer matters. You need your bonuses to apply up front, to be thrown at deciding the battle when and how you wish, not a moment late during mop up.

Peace,
-CxE

Tozen · Apr 26, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

It's a valid point but somewhat flawed. If you look at it from sheer energy numbers, then the elementalist easily tops the necromancer, but that is not the end of the story.

First, that analysis assumes that a necromancer would be wielding 25+ mana energy moves like an elementalist does, and this simply is not the case most of the time. The necro's best moves often take between 10-15 mana and are not "spam cast," so mana conservation isn't as much of an issue to begin with. Necros bide their time and either do a combined nuke with a full team of eight or disable an immediate threat to the team. An elementalist can nuke better and a mesmer can disable better, but with a necromancer you get the flexibility to switch between roles easily.

Second, the elementalist is a great primary for the reasons you mentioned, but it DOES have very obvious weaknesses that are easily exploited. Namely, when I played my mesmer character (or any class with a mesmer secondary for that matter) I ALWAYS immediately targeted elementalists with my inspiration magic. Your huge tank of gas simply becomes a huge benefit to an opponent when they guzzle your whole supply down quickly. Then, what do you do? As you mentioned, Energy Storage is great for its sheer numbers, but at the end of the day, zero mana still equals zero mana. Without an adequate form of recovery, Energy Storage becomes useless if someone exploits you, and inspiration magic is the one line in this game I have yet to find a way to avoid. The spells are fast, efficient, frequently used, and deadly in capable hands.

In that event, a primary necro (especially in a crowded PvP match or PvE mission) will dominate in the mana numbers easily. They both are great abilities, but it comes down to whether you want to put your mana in the potential hands of a foe as an elementalist or recover it more quickly as a necromancer. Both require luck in a way.

Apr 26, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tozen

First, that analysis assumes that a necromancer would be wielding 25+ mana energy moves like an elementalist does, and this simply is not the case most of the time. The necro's best moves often take between 10-15 mana and are not "spam cast," so mana conservation isn't as much of an issue to begin with. Necros bide their time and either do a combined nuke with a full team of eight or disable an immediate threat to the team. An elementalist can nuke better and a mesmer can disable better, but with a necromancer you get the flexibility to switch between roles easily.

Most elementalists arent walking around with 25 energy casting skills because-most of them suck. Combined with double attunement stacking and you just dig a deeper hole for Soul Reaping arguments.

As a necro their "best" moves are somewhat debateable, but one of them is definetly spam friendly(Sof). The other was also(Malaise) but thats been nerfed to the suckage pot.

Quote:

Second, the elementalist is a great primary for the reasons you mentioned, but it DOES have very obvious weaknesses that are easily exploited. Namely, when I played my mesmer character (or any class with a mesmer secondary for that matter) I ALWAYS immediately targeted elementalists with my inspiration magic.

Not sure why you would do that, but there is a flaw in that also. Even with Power Leak, Energy Drain, Energy_(list of subpar energy denial here) and interrupts it's not easy draining an ele worth of 70-80 energy. Even then, why are you picking them over monks?

Quote:

Your huge tank of gas simply becomes a huge benefit to an opponent when they guzzle your whole supply down quickly. Then, what do you do? As you mentioned, Energy Storage is great for its sheer numbers, but at the end of the day, zero mana still equals zero mana. Without an adequate form of recovery, Energy Storage becomes useless if someone exploits you, and inspiration magic is the one line in this game I have yet to find a way to avoid. The spells are fast, efficient, frequently used, and deadly in capable hands.

Elemental Attunement+[insert element here] Attunements are so broken that they allow Elementalists to effectively dodge energy denial alot better than almost anyone else. If a mesmer drains you of lets say 40/80 energy, when your spells cost at most 5 energy then it's not as threatening with those attunements running.

Quote:

In that event, a primary necro (especially in a crowed PvP match or PvE mission) will dominate in the mana numbers easily. They both are great abilities, but it comes down to whether you want to put your mana in the potential hands of a foe as an elementalist or recover it more quickly as a necromancer. Both require luck in a way.

No they wont. Primary necros still cant touch ES not only because of the back-loaded nature of SR, but because ES comes with some energy management skills that trump Soul Reaping. Ignoring the crazy energy gains from Ether Renewal, there's even an argument of comparing Ether Prodigy to Soul Reaping on what gives back more energy of the long run.

Theres no "putting mana into the hands of a foe" because your an Ele. It works the same way on a Necro so that argument is flawed.

tektonik · Apr 26, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

You are also assuming a Elementalist will be wielding 25 mana moves which as an Air Ele(as most PvP are if not Earth) dont have many and are in the 10-15 range as well. A Necro can't nuke. IIRC 3 second for a slow chain casting Cold Damage spell? please.

You target my elementalist with your mesmer? Thanks a whole lot I don't care what damage I can't do now because my team is gonna be that much closer to win....moot point on your part.

So your conclusion is still countered by Ensign's analysis on why energy gained from SR is too late to take any effect on the outcome of the battle.

NO ONE is saying necros are bad.....they are just bad primaries I would still go E/N and do better than your N/x with the same necro skills

Tozen · Apr 26, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

I find it amusing Black Ace that you have the words "self esteem killer" under your name

I'm sick of being the one guy here that is defending the necro primary lol, so I think I'm just going to give it up for the moment.

At the end of the day I guess the only words I can offer for people that are thinking about the necromancer are that I've never run into energy troubles with my particular builds and I've had a blast playing with the necro skills.

If the elementalist IS actually better (and I don't have difficulty believing this because no game is ever perfectly balanced for long) it still doesn't deter me from playing... actually, I'm a sick enough person to be encouraged by it!

My follow necromancers, underdogs for the win! Don't forget the critism you recieved from this forum when you're cleaning clocks ^^

Thanks for the good discussion all!

-Tozen

EDIT: BTW, I feel it is worth mentioning that my analysis may be slightly off simply because I'm in a hecka good guild and our team strategy dominates. Because the players are so good, I have slightly more freedom in my targets (oftentimes I disable one player on the team while the rest of the team focus fires another, such as a monk)

Apr 26, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tozen

I find it amusing Black Ace that you have the words "self esteem killer" under your name

I try to be as disruptive as I can

Quote:

I'm sick of being the one guy here that is defending the necro primary lol, so I think I'm just going to give it up for the moment.

Well it's pretty hard to defend Soul Reaping

However what we here at Gurus encourage people to do is find out why things are good or bad, learn how to evaluate them and become better and innovative. Maybe everyone else is looking at Soul Reaping the wrong way. If you could find something spectacular that no one else saw, maybe we would all be convinced. Of course, you do need to back up alot of things with math or theoretical examples

Quote:

At the end of the day I guess the only words I can offer for people that are thinking about the necromancer are that I've never run into energy troubles with my particular builds and I've had a blast playing with the necro skills.

Well, the problem with something like this is it doesnt tell us much. What skills, what attributes, versus who, under what conditions? We need everything possibly considered and "empty" statements like that cause alot of problems for analysis at times.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 26, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

.. for what it's worth, Soul-reaping (1) doesn't take up any skill slots, (2) is always active, (3) has no recast time and (4) works very nicely when it's large-scale PvP, such as an 8v8v8....

Just wish it did something else besides only stealing energy, such as providing a small power boost to all necromancer spells.

Or maybe it'd also add a small life-leach whenever the necromancer hit someone, whether ranged or up-close.

I <3 Primary necros.

At the very least, you're sacrificing skill for STYLE.

And, with a necromancer, isn't sacrificing what it's all about? :d

tektonik · Apr 26, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio Ghibli

.. for what it's worth, Soul-reaping (1) doesn't take up any skill slots, (2) is always active, (3) has no recast time and (4) works very nicely when it's large-scale PvP, such as an 8v8v8....

Just wish it did something else besides only stealing energy, such as providing a small power boost to all necromancer spells.

Or maybe it'd also add a small life-leach whenever the necromancer hit someone, whether ranged or up-close.

I <3 Primary necros.

At the very least, you're sacrificing skill for STYLE.

And, with a necromancer, isn't sacrificing what it's all about? :d

As said, not sure in this thread because its been argued so many times, SR has a range of half your minimap roughly so in large battles it doesn't do that much more ebcause who honestly has gotten into anything more than 3 teams of 8 at one time?

I am not saying that anyone playing primary necro is stupid either its just you can't convince anyone you are that much more powerful than x/nec. If you go nec/x for style more power to you.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 26, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

.. oh, yeah.

Pretty much.

The primary ability for a necromancer is pretty limited in its usefulness, even more considering what you're trading out for with other classes. However, there's nothing sexier to me than the Necromancer avatars though, so.. ;D

bobert · Apr 26, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

well I'm going necro primary, but I'm not using SR, so it doesn't really affect me.

Alexiel · May 01, 2005, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Now I've actually tried it, I shall put forth my informed opinion. I really like my new character: He's great fun for me.

At first I was fairly unimpressed with Soul Reaping and in the Arena it was utterly useless. However in PvE it's fantastic. Were it not for Divine Favour being so good for healing, I would consider a N/Mo if I make a Monk character now that the game is released.

For the moment, though, I'm having SO much fun with my N/Me. *maniacal laugh*.

Thanks Tozen for intriguing me enough to try SR. Not useful all the time, but in those big battles like Gates of Kryta; very handy. Especially given Necromancy is fairly energy intensive let alone combining it with Mesmer. Though now Energy Tap is really only useful if things refuse to die.

Jesso · May 01, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Great post. I'm trying to learn as much as possible before the game gets here.

cyberzomby · May 01, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Hey
I got the Primary Necro class and loving it. I won a few times in Pvp ( with my team ) but i found out that Necro with High Blood Magic and Mesmer Inspiration can deal a lot of damage. And a few Curses help 2